Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:18 pm

I got back to my rich waterfall cove and made a few more discoveries. The quality forest covers a bit more ground than I anticipated. My clinometer lost fluid and is very difficult to use so I just made a handful of measurements. I did a little treecon on the next couple of slope/coves. They are filled primarily with tulips. The waterfall cove has a pretty solid mix but tulip is still the dominant species. The sugar maple is an absolute rocket. It is fairly young and apically dominant. It beats all of the old growth sugars in Walker Cove in terms of height.

New numbers from the cove

Lirio tulip 155.9' 155.8' 150.6' 150.2'
Aeschulus flava 127.1'
Acer sacch 135.0' 120.2'
Quercus rubra 137.1' ~140'
Frax Bilt 130.6' 127.4'
Tilia hetero 132.1'

Current Rucker for the cove (just about 3 acres covered so far)

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Quercus rubra 140'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Tilia hetero 132.1'
Frax Bilt 130.6'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quercus mont 129.0'
Carya cord 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'
Carya alba 127.0'

R10 = 133.83'

I checked out another trail that I'd expected to be rather pointless in regards to tree height due to its higher elevation. I was pleasantly surprised. The trail starts at about 4100' and climbs gently to about 4300'. I encountered just a handful of Biltmore ash but found the new Big Ivy and Buncombe County height champ. The heights are impressive on ash and tulip for 4100' elevation.

Lirio tulip 148.9' 145.5' 144.8'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Acer rubrum 121.6'
Quercus rubra 121.7'

North Fork Ivy Rucker = 135.33'

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Quer rubra 140.1'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Tilia hetero 132.1'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quer mont 129.0'
Carya cord 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'
3 way tie 127.0'

Big Ivy Rucker = 143.80'

Pinus strobus 162.8'
Lirio tulip 160.3'
Tsuga canad 147.4'
Frax Bilt 145.5'
Carya glabra 141.1'
Quer rubra 140.1'
Carya cord 137.0'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Frax Amer 133.6'
Prunus sero 132.9'
Last edited by bbeduhn on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:24 am

Will Blozan and I did some searching in the coves around the waterfall cove. Species distribution was similar to the waterfall cove. Sugars are the most impressive overall along with Biltmore ash and red oak. A fair number of old growth relic trees dot the coves, primarily bitternut hickory, sugar maple and black birch. Bitternut remained short for a rich cove. An old growth specimen reached 128' but the younger ones had crowns that curved sideways under tulip crowns.
The tallest tulip is a majestic one in the middle of a cove, likely 90-100 years old. The next two are young rockets in the 50-70 year range.

new numbers

Frax bilt 132.7'
Magnol acum 135.4'
Tilia hetero 135.2'
Quercus rubra 141.5' 140.0' 136.9'
Quercus mont 120.5'
Lirio tulip 158.4' 157.7' 155.3' 151.8'
Betula lenta 108.5'


Overall, for the coves R10 = 135.34'

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Quercus rubra 141.5'
Magnol acum 135.4'
Tilia hetero 135.2'
Acer sacch 135.0'
Fraxi bilt 132.7'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quercus mont 129.0'
Carya cordi 128.0'
Aesch flava 127.1'

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:47 am

We visited the excellent white pine site off Corner Rock Creek to show Will the stand and get some updated heights.
I may have under measured one tree last year as it has shown tremendous growth. Two sycamore pencils are approaching 130'. They are young and vigorous, trying to compete with tulips and white pines. The white pines grow in close proximity at the bottom of a tiny cove, not far from a stream. Last year's numbers are in parentheses.

Pinus strobus

166.4' (162.7') 164.3'(162.8) 162.2' (160'+)

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ElijahW
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by ElijahW » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:52 pm

Brian,

Very impressive.

I have a couple of things I'm curious about:

1. I know you, Will Blozan, Jess Riddle, and others have gone into great detail on the differences between White and Biltmore Ash. When you walk through the woods, knowing both species may be present, how much difficulty do you have properly identifying each tree? Does it take just a glance from a distance or do you have to get up close? Because I've seen just a couple of planted Biltmore Ash, my difficulty factor would be high. I'm assuming you guys are much more proficient.

2. Do you ever run into Tilia americana down there? T. heterophylla is supposedly native (but rare) in my general area of NY State, but I've never encountered it, and was wondering if the situation with T. americana is similar where you are; T. heterophylla grows very well here, at least as a planted specimen, by the way.

Thanks for sharing,

Elijah

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tsharp
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by tsharp » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:00 pm

Elijah: Biltmore Ash seemingly has lost its specie status and its varietal status according to Pnts database. Tilia heterophylla has maintained it status as a variety of T. Americana.

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:24 pm

Elijah,
Biltmore ash isn't recognized as a species by any group that I know of outside of the Native Tree Society. It generally has very distinct bark difference from white ash. In coves, the difference is not as great. Biltmore can have the diamond pattern of white ash but has varying patterns strewn in periodically as you look up the trunk. These patterns can include very rectangular segments which can look a bit alligator like. They can also be nearly reflective and very white in color. Typically, a diamond pattern will morph into a rectangular pattern and back and forth this will happen as you look up the trunk. In South Carolina, The rectangular pattern exists but but sometimes oval shapes will appear as well. Check out the Biltmore ash bark that I thought was persimmon.
http://ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=122&t=4914

On a different note, Biltmore ash is variable in a different way along stream and stream flats. Check out some examples from Big Creek. The tallest white ash is included as well.
http://ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=7611

The patterns can be even more extreme right along stream banks. They can look very green ashy. Green ash don't grow in the mountains where I live but I've been in several discussions about Biltmore vs. green ash. Green has smaller twigs than Biltmore or white ash and is only found in low lying areas or along streams. I don't believe I've even seen a green ash yet. In Nashville, TN, the ash are Biltmore. In Greensboro, NC, the ash are all Biltmore. In the Southern Appalachians, white ash seems to grow only at higher elevation, above 3,000'. Ironically, the Biltmore Estate has many more white ash than Biltmore ash, but they were planted.

I have yet to see white ash and Biltmore ash growing side by side but I did hear of an instance where they did. In Big Ivy, I've seen white ash in Walker Cove, which is thoroughly dominated by old growth sugar maples. But there is no magical elevation where Biltmore gives way to white ash. The 145' Biltmore ash I just found was at 4100' elevation.

Tilia Americana is not native to the Southern Appalachians. It does make it into Kentucky and grows quite large there.
I've seen a few planted specimens but in the mountains it's all white basswood (or mountain basswood).

I'll get some pictures of the streamside Biltmore ash bark variety and compare them to the mountain bark variety and to white ash, but it may be a while before I get around to it.
Brian

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:29 am

Stony Fork Coves

Two coves further up Stony Fork road looked intriguing on the map. The narrower coves in this area had proven to be fruitful. These coves are wider and more spread out. They both proved to be disappointing. I didn't measure a single tree in either cove. Fortunately, a little blip on the map proved to be very fruitful. Stony Fork's Rucker and the overall Big Ivy Rucker increased as a result. I finally found some shagbark hickories.

Quercus rubra 138.5' 132.7' 132.0'
Quercus mont 112.2'
Robinia pseudo 132.2' 130.8'
Acer saccharum 126.0' 121.3'
Carya ovata 101.0'
Prunus sero 123.0'
Frax Biltmore 115.6'
Tilia hetero 129.3'
Magnol acumin 138.0' 118.6'
Lirio tulip 163.4' 156.2' 148.3' 147.4' 145.9'

The tulip, red oak and cuke are new highs for Stony Fork/Mineral Creek and cuke and tulip for Big Ivy.

along Stony Fork Road

Carya ovata 121.0'
Pinus resinosa 111.2'

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:17 am

North Fork Ivy Rucker
R10 = 136.62'

Lirio tulip 160.3'
Fraxinus Bilt 145.5'
Quercus rubra 141.5'
Magnolia acum 135.4'
Tilia hetero 135.2'
Acer saccharum 135.0'
Acer rubrum 129.2'
Quercus mont 129.0'
Carya cordif 128.0'
Aeschulus flava 127.1'

Pinus strobus 127.0'
Carya alba 127.0'
Prunus sero 116.8'
Robinia pseudo 116.1'
Betula lenta 108.5'

Mineral Creek
R10 = 139.17'

Lirio tulip 163.4'
Pinus strobus 157.0'
Fraxinus bilt 142.1'
Quercus rubra 138.5'
Magnol acum 138.0'
Carya cordif 137.0'
Robinia pseudo 132.7'
Tilia hetero 130.3'
Prunus sero 126.7'
Acer saccharum 126.0'

Quercus mont 124.2'
Quercus velo 123.4'
Pinus echinata 121.7'
Carya ovata 121.0'
Aeschuls flava 119.3'
Acer rubrum 118.7'
Fagus grandi 117.9'
Pinus resinosa 111.2'
Betula lenta 108.5'

Big Ivy overall
R10 = 145.05'
R20 = 137.37'

1. Pinus strobus 166.4'
2. Lirio tulip 163.4'
3. Tsuga canaden 147.4'
4. Frax Biltm 145.5'
5. Quercus rubra 141.5'
6. Carya glabra 141.1'
7. Magnol acum 138.0'
8. Carya cordif 137.0'
9. Tilia hetero 135.2'
10. Acer saccharum 135.0'

11. Frax americana 133.6'
12. Prunus sero 132.9'
13. Robin pseudo 132.7'
14. Plat occid 130.4'
15. Acer rubrum 129.2'
16. Quercus mont 129.0'
17. Carya ovalis 128.0'
18. Aeschulus flava 127.1'
19. Carya alba 127.0'
19. Quercus alba 127.0'

21. Quercus coccinea 125.1'
22. Quercus velotina 123.4'
23. Pinus echinata 121.7'

The 145' Rucker is outstanding! If there is a spot rich in hickories, the number could go higher but hickories are quite scarce in the area. Chestnut and red oaks are well represented but other oaks are fairly scarce in coves, where they tend to achieve greater heights. I still haven't been able to get into the largest old growth area. The road is closed until April.

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dbhguru
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by dbhguru » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:39 am

Brian,

From the early 1990s when I first visited Walker Cove, you've put the watershed on the map. It is great to see what this exceptional watershed grows. I was surprised at the 166-foot white pine. Again, white pine and tulip trees duke it out for first place, but there are soooo many more tall tulips.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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bbeduhn
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Re: Walker Cove Big Ivy/Coleman Boundary NC

Post by bbeduhn » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:12 pm

Town Branch Road is in the vicinity of Big Ivy, so I will include it under the Big Ivy heading. I thought it was part of Pisgah National Forest but according to the maps I have, it is not. This patch consists of 8-10 acres, bisected by the road. The trees appeared to be much taller than typically seen along a road. No signs are posted like on most private land. I do not know who owns it. It has a few trails that definitely get regular use. One near record scarlet oak was found, along with some respectable white pines, tulips and red oaks. I believe the height record on scarlet oak is 138', but that one needs a remeasure. It is also in NC.

Pinus strobus 147.7' 142.7'
Lirio tulip 146.3' 144.3' 142.8'
Quercus rubra 134.6'
Quercus coccinea 133.6'

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