Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

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#1)  Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby adam.rosen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:15 pm

               
                       
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 I went to the 1675 Grove, or the Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY on July 28, 2012.  We lost one of the big ones during last week's microburst.  The rest of the trees are standing tall and looking very impressive.  I love how the canopy in that grove has two levels- normal second growth level and then the OMG level.  I have pictures of some of the tall trees in the grove, a picture of myself with the enormous snag, only a few days old, and a photo of some sort of tree nymph who I ran into on the way.
The directions to the grove can be accessed with a google search for elders grove, and an article from Adirondack Life comes up.

I know that there are trees in the MTSF that are taller, and the tall ones are more numerous, but the 1675 grove has a gnarly factor that is hard to match.  Some well weathered yellow birches are a bonus, not big, but obviously old and really cool.  There is also at least one old growth maple that's right up there with some of the other old growth maples I've seen-Gifford Woods or the Syracuse witness tree.
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edfrank, Larry Tucei, Rand, sjhalow
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#2)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby Joe » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:07 pm

Adam, is this land owned by the Paul Smith forestry school? Or is that the name of a park or town? I've never been up to that area. Just curious because if it's owned by the forestry school, then I'm pleased that they've managed to keep some old trees.
Joe
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#3)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby adam.rosen » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:55 pm

The grove is owned by Paul Smith's College, which has a forestry school.  A faculty member studied the grove, tagged the pines, etc.   http://www.adirondacklifemag.com/blo...-tallest-tree/  and   http://www.adirondacklifemag.com/blo...first-forests/  provide some nice context.  Of course, I'm sure which is actually the tallest tree in NYS is up for dispute.
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#4)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby ElijahW » Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:40 pm

Adam,

Nice job with the photos!  I especially like the last one of the bending pine with the balsam fir (?) in the background.  It's like the mighty pine shot up to a certain height, then decided to grow sideways instead.  From my one trip there, the tree that made the biggest impression on me was the really twisty white pine.  I'm hoping that's not the casualty that you discovered.  It sure would make a good candidate for Bob's crown-offset formula.  As for the tallest known tree in NY, I don't have a ready answer, but I'm sure someone does-maybe Bob or Jess Riddle or Tom Howard.  I'm guessing it's either in the Elder grove or Zoar Valley.  I'll have to dig deeper.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks
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#5)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby Larry Tucei » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:04 pm

Adam,   Wow those are some amazing Pines! The power to twist off a tree like that has always made me feel so helpless. Great photos!  I'm glad the storm didn't do more damage to your beloved Grove.  Larry
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#6)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby AndrewJoslin » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:15 pm

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#7)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby tomhoward » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:47 pm

Elijah,

I don't think you have to dig too deep to find out about the tallest tree in NY. The only accurately measured trees in NY have been measured by our group as far as I know, and only Elders Grove (or 1675 Grove as it is also called) and Zoar Valley have really tall measurements. But very few people in NY are measuring trees these days. The highest measurement I know of for Zoar Valley is the 156 ft. Tuliptree measured by Bob Leverett in June 2003. The 160.4 ft. White Pine in Elders Grove was measured by Howard Stoner soon after that in 2003. It's hard to say how tall the tallest trees there are now, as it has been years since trees have been measured either there or at Zoar. The most "recent" (about 2004-2005?) tallest tree measured at Elders Grove was a White Pine at 158 ft. +. This is the tallest tree I know of in NY now, but it is possible that 160 ft. White Pines exist in Elders Grove, and 160 ft. Tuliptrees in Zoar Valley. But no one seems to be measuring on those sites. it is also possible that downstate NY, including Long Island, has 160 ft. Tuliptrees, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has measured trees in that whole big NY City area since 2004.

Adam,

Those pictures of the great old White Pines are fantastic! It's one more site I have to see!

Tom Howard
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#8)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby George Fieo » Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:24 pm

NTS,

Daniel Karpen of Huntington NY measured a 167' tulip poplar on Long Island in April of 2012 near the Shu Swamp Nature Preserve.  A clinometer was used to measure the tree but I don't know if a lazer range finder was used with the clinometer to calculate it's height.  I am hoping to contact Daniel and accurately measure this tree after leaf drop.  Photos of the tree look promising.

George
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#9)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby ElijahW » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:21 pm

Tom,

Thanks for your reply.  I was aware of the Zoar tulip and Elders Grove pine measurements, but didn't know if anyone had accurately measured any taller trees since.  I couldn't recall any.  I made a trip to Zoar a couple of weeks ago intending to make some measurements, but, due to the canopy density, couldn't confirm any new height records.  The tallest straight-up reading (with my Nikon 440) I got was 48 yards on a tulip.  So, including my height (6 feet), that makes 150'.  I'm pretty confident that Zoar holds at least one tulip over 160', and possibly at least one sycamore, as well.  

George,

I hope this measurement is at least close.  Tulips can get massive down that way.  The pre-settlement (European) forest in the NYC area and lower-lying parts of New Jersey must have contained some whoppers.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks
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#10)  Re: Elder's Grove, in Paul Smith's NY

Postby AndrewJoslin » Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:43 pm

Have to wonder about the Long Island tuliptree, not much to shelter the tree from Atlantic storms, would be very cool though if it was verified.
-AJ
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