Michigan Max Tree List

Moderators: edfrank, dbhguru

Post Reply
User avatar
DougBidlack
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:14 pm

Michigan Max Tree List

Post by DougBidlack » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:40 pm

NTS,

I was inspired to put this list together by the recent Mississippi tall tree list provided by Larry. The lines in red are measurements that were made by NTS or I at least got the info from our BBS. Several of the measurements by me haven't been posted before. The lines in black are mainly from "The Big Trees and Shrubs of Michigan" as well as a few other sources. These measurements are often extremely unreliable which is why I have them separate. However, they do offer a good source of potential trees to remeasure. All heights and crown spreads are in feet and girths are in inches. I don't yet have a column for height measurement technique but I will in the future. I also have not included lats and longs. I think this is something we may want to discuss for public lists like this even though some of the directions are detailed enough that lats and longs are not really needed.

I have no doubt that there are still plenty of errors and just better ways to present the info. If anybody notices anything please let me know. In particular, I think I will try to organize the plants alphabetically by scientific name because it will make them easier to find. I listed them based on relationship from ancestral to more derived genera for my own benefit. Within each genus the species are in alphabetical order. I hope to update this list at the end of each measuring season in May or June at the very least. It will be nice to see the red lines getting longer and the black ones shorter!

I hope this attachment works well. I converted it to an excel file and I was able to open it with no problems on a PC.
eNTS Michigan Tree Maximums Feb2013.xls
(174.5 KiB) Downloaded 124 times

Doug

User avatar
bbeduhn
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:23 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by bbeduhn » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:51 am

Doug,
The 192' tulip and the 155' ash seem a little off. Impressive list...and extremely thorough.
Brian

User avatar
dbhguru
Posts: 4484
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:34 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by dbhguru » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:26 pm

Doug,

I realize this is a work in progress, and a mighty impressive amount of work, at that. We're grateful. But even with your qualifications, might I suggest another column to identify suspect measurements as such. Inflated numbers should be flagged in any of our lists in a way that a 3rd party who happens to see the list can see that we place no credibility in those measurements.

To Brian's point, we can be virtually certain that the tuliptree height measurement is off by tens of feet. I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't off by over 50 feet. And look at the crown spread. A 133-foot average crown spread for a tulip tree that doesn't quite make 15 feet in girth would be remarkable in and of itself. We're all very happy that you've gotten involved with the Michigan big tree lists that have made a laughing stock out of the state-level champion tree programs. Michigan has plenty of fine trees that can stand on their own. The cache of absurdly inflated heights needs to be purged once and for all. Monica and I will be traveling through Michigan in June. Perhaps we can check out a tree or two on our way. Regardless, thanks for your hard work.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

User avatar
edfrank
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by edfrank » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:59 pm

Bob and Brian,

Doug has already specified that the results in black are from an unreliable source:
The lines in black are mainly from "The Big Trees and Shrubs of Michigan" as well as a few other sources. These measurements are often extremely unreliable which is why I have them separate.
All I think is needed is a key that explains this fact as part of the spreadsheet itself. Those cells could potentially be color coded to make the distinction clearer. I have attached a more color coded version with a prominent key of the spreadsheet provided by Doug.

The other thing needed in Doug's spreadsheet is that the tree name and species name needs to be included in every row, or when the data is sorted rows without that information will be lost and no longer associated with the species name.

I have made these adjustments on Doug's original spreadsheet and have attached it below.

Edward Frank

.
Attachments
eNTS Michigan Tree Maximums Feb2013.xls
(134 KiB) Downloaded 60 times
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

User avatar
dbhguru
Posts: 4484
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:34 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by dbhguru » Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:12 pm

Doug, Ed,

Yes, the explanation at the top works.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

User avatar
Will Blozan
Posts: 1153
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:13 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by Will Blozan » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:47 pm

Doug,

I could be mistaken but I think Don Bragg measured the 192' tuliptree grove. The tallest tree was down (of course) but I don't think any in the stand broke 140'. Search for "Cass County" in the archives- it should turn up.

Will

User avatar
DougBidlack
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:14 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by DougBidlack » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:53 pm

Brian,
everyone has really focused in on that ridiculously tall tuliptree which I think Bob rightly figures is more likely 140-145' if it is even that, but you also found my personal favorite; a 155' blue ash! I'm sure it's dead now, but if it were actually possible to remeasure it I have a feeling it might win for the biggest percent error height measurement.

Bob,
I think Ed addressed your point. Making the lines completely different colors was very helpful to me because I could read all the way across the columns and immediately know which measurements were good and which were not.

Will,
I have Don's measurement in the list. He visited Russ Forest in Cass County rather than a farm North of Quincy in Branch County. I know that he did not break 140' and I still haven't either, but I think there likely are some in Michigan that are a little over 140'.

Ed,
thanks for your work on the list. I think they are all good improvements. When I read the updated list, however, there appear to be some problem with the horizontal gray bands. Sometimes they are not going across all the columns. Or I guess you could say that some of the white bands (or stripes) are not going all the way across.

Doug

User avatar
edfrank
Posts: 4217
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by edfrank » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:31 am

Doug,

After I did the color coding, which was perfect, I noticed there was a need to copy the common name and Latin name boxes so the data could be effectively sorted. So I went back and copied these. The few spaces missing gray backgrounds are places where I did not get the background reset properly after doing the names. Just highlight those cells and fill them with light gray color. The color is missing in only a few of the Latin name cells. The bands do not extend past the last data column and teh common name column is color coded in two shades of green.
highlight the cells
right click
choose format cells
choose fill
choose the third box down on the left side as the gray color to fill in box.
click OK
As you noticed I have the info boxes and column headings in pale blue, the common names in light green, and the common names for those species fro which there is no data at all , in a paler green. This provides some organization by color (it probably will need to be redone if the data is sorted) but it makes teh document more colorful to look at in any case.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

User avatar
DougBidlack
Posts: 425
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:14 pm

Re: Michigan Max Tree List

Post by DougBidlack » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:19 pm

Ed,

here is the next iteration of this list.
eNTS Michigan Tree Maximums 8Feb2013(2).xls
(163 KiB) Downloaded 112 times
It is now in alphabetical order which should make it much easier to use. These are all species that are supposed to be native to Michigan. However recent evidence suggests that the few specimens of chestnut oak (Quercus montana) that have been found in Waterloo State Recreation Area have simply spread from plantings. Also the name Quercus prinus for this species has been recommended for rejection so I changed it in the list. Scarlet oak (Quercus coccinea) is also questionable from Michigan in light of some work done by Hipp and Weber. All the specimens that they examined appear to be Hill's oak (Quercus ellipsoidalis) but Andrew Hipp still feels that true scarlet oak may yet be found in Michigan. I have left both on the list for now although it is quite likely that all the scarlet oaks are actually Hill's oaks.

I also added highbush blueberry to the list because I'm quite certain that the species reaches 15' in height in Michigan. So this brings up my definition for tree which is quite liberal. Basically I'm going to measure any woody plant that can reach 15' in height in Michigan and I'll call it a tree. That just makes life easier for me as I really don't want to have to deal with trying to determine whether or not the plant is too shrubby-looking to be called a tree. I am certain that there are more species that are native to Michigan and grow to 15' in height than are on this list. It will change.

Doug

PS, I'm also planning a non-native list but that is well into the future as I'm trying to prioritize here.

Post Reply

Return to “Michigan”