Any large forest grown live oaks?

Reports and materials related to the Live Oak Project. The project was initiated by Larry Tucei to document the great live oak tree ((Quercus virginia) found in the southern United States.

Moderators: edfrank, dbhguru

#1)  Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby sradivoy » Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:33 am

Live Oak Larry,

Awsome list of open grown plantation trees. I would be curious to know what a forest grown specimen looks like and whether or not it would shoot straight up like a red or white oak would under similar circumstances. How tall can this tree get in a natural state? Or is the canopy so low and open that the form of the tree pretty much looks the same in both cases. Thanks.

Stefan R.
User avatar
sradivoy
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Has Liked: 45 times
Has Been Liked: 128 times
Print view this post

#2)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Larry Tucei » Sat Oct 18, 2014 5:47 pm

Stefan-  You are correct a Live Oak will grown almost straight up when competing in the Forest. Will Blozan measure one in Florida to 93' in 09. I imagine a 100' or more would be possible under the right circumstances.  I read in the William Bartram writings that many Live Oaks were quite tall as tall as many of the other species he documented. He however did not give any heights.  Oldest documentation of what our Forests looked like before Europeans- check his stuff out it is fasinating.    Larry
User avatar
Larry Tucei
 
Posts: 1791
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:44 am
Location: Southern Mississippi
Has Liked: 663 times
Has Been Liked: 573 times
Print view this post

#3)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby sradivoy » Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:56 pm

Thanks for the tip in regard to the Bartram writings. The open grown form remindes me of a giant woody plant with bush-like characteristics. I need to see one in person. One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't know about the Angel Oak when I visited Charlston two decades ago. I would say the open form is far more interesting as far as oaks go. I think it reaches its fullest expresssion under these conditions. Like the tree itself I favor the open variety if the tree is shade intolerant and the forest form if its shade tolerant.
User avatar
sradivoy
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Has Liked: 45 times
Has Been Liked: 128 times
Print view this post

#4)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Lucas » Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:06 pm

No pix of timber types?

I searched and didn't find any.
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir
User avatar
Lucas
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 12:55 pm
Has Liked: 0 times
Has Been Liked: 124 times
Print view this post

#5)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Bart Bouricius » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:06 am

For virtually all trees I prefer the form of the tree that grows in the natural environment under which it evolved.  This is partly a preference for a natural as opposed to a man made landscape.  I would argue that most people don't look up when they walk in a forest.  They are more likely to see and appreciate trees that are closer to eye level.  I find the beautiful spreading form of a kapok tree more appealing when it towers above the canopy as opposed to squatting in a field grown condition.  Likewise the Guanacasta tree,Enterolobium cyclocarpum, which is described as a "a huge pasture tree" by Richard Condit in Trees of Panama and Costa Rica, attains a height that makes it a candidate for being considered a true emergent (emerging above the canopy) in the natural forest, and in the forest, it still has a spreading crown form reminiscent of the live oaks.  So just because the live oaks have been cut out of the forest does not mean their forest grown form would not be quite beautiful.
User avatar
Bart Bouricius
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:41 am
Location: Amherst, MA USA
Has Liked: 108 times
Has Been Liked: 295 times
Print view this post

#6)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby bbeduhn » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:46 am

Live oaks look a bit different in the forest but they don't seem to grow like rockets, at least from my limited exposure.  I've observed them in South Carolina and the Atlantic coast of Georgia.  Upper 70's can be found in some forests that are at least a couple of miles inland.  On barrier islands, they form more of a thicket with other dense underbrush.

Forest forms still branch out a bit but have small branches that shoot straight up from the larger, angled branches.  In Charleston, there is a considerable amount of medium sized (9-12'), older live oaks in  forests, but these were obviously open grown which then became surrounded by younger forests.  The true forest grown live oaks in this area grow relatively straight with angled larger branches, often terminating with straight up growing smaller branches which take the trees up to nearly 80'.  The ones I've observed are less than 100 years old.  I don't know how they do as older forest grown specimens as there doesn't seem to be much old growth forest with live oaks growing in SC or the Atlantic GA coast.  There is a small patch of old growth I need to check out that is dominated by baldcypress which could have live oak as well.

Open grown live oaks tend to achieve heights of the low 60's to about 70'.  It takes a long while to achieve these heights in the open, 150+ years by my observation.  I would agree with Larry that it can top 100' and likely does so in Florida and perhaps on the Gulf Coast.  Hurricanes may limit the ultimate height as the entire range of live oak lies withing the hurricane zone.
User avatar
bbeduhn
 
Posts: 943
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: Asheville, NC
Has Liked: 1093 times
Has Been Liked: 468 times
Print view this post

#7)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby sradivoy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:20 am

I find it odd that the largest live oak specimens are all plantation trees. I would have expected this from a non native species and not from a native species. Are there any old historical photos of massive forest grown live oaks like they do with the American Chestnut or White Oak? There should at least be old written accounts of trees that are at least as massive if not more than the ones found today.
User avatar
sradivoy
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Cleveland Ohio
Has Liked: 45 times
Has Been Liked: 128 times
Print view this post

#8)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Bart Bouricius » Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:25 pm

As in the case of the live oak, many species here in Costa Rica such as the bitter cedar (actually an angiosperm) have been virtually wiped out in most natural environments, yet it is still found on farms in many parts of the country.  I think the more regional the tree and valuable the wood, the more likely this scenario is to develop.
User avatar
Bart Bouricius
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:41 am
Location: Amherst, MA USA
Has Liked: 108 times
Has Been Liked: 295 times
Print view this post

#9)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Will Blozan » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:27 pm

NTS,

Just as an idea, I would reckon the live oak in pre-settlement times grew in a sort of savanna ecotype, with wildfire and poor soils perhaps keeping trees widely spaced, hence the dominant form of live oak. Just a thought. I have seen what I would call mature live oak woodlands in SC but still the trees barely top 80' And as Brian said, they still creep and spread through the canopy and are anything but straight and thrifty. I am going later this week and will make a point to get some photos.

Will
User avatar
Will Blozan
 
Posts: 1150
Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:13 pm
Location: North Carolina
Has Liked: 1543 times
Has Been Liked: 440 times
Print view this post

#10)  Re: Any large forest grown live oaks?

Postby Bart Bouricius » Fri Oct 24, 2014 12:51 pm

Interesting Idea Will,

Anyone have any solid evidence as to the original environment or types of environments that typically contained Live Oaks?
User avatar
Bart Bouricius
 
Posts: 524
Joined: Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:41 am
Location: Amherst, MA USA
Has Liked: 108 times
Has Been Liked: 295 times
Print view this post

Next

Return to Live Oak Project

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron