Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

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ElijahW
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by ElijahW » Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:40 am

Mark,

Outstanding report. Thank you for posting your pictures, as well. Though I've been in that general area of Kentucky several times, I had no idea such forests existed. Though NY can get close with your hemlock heights, right now we have no confirmed white pines over 160', let alone 170'. Growth rates on your trees resemble those of the southern Appalachians, and like you, I wonder what must have been there in years past. Well done, Mark, and thanks again,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Matt Markworth » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:14 pm

ElijahW wrote:Mark,

Outstanding report. Thank you for posting your pictures, as well. Though I've been in that general area of Kentucky several times, I had no idea such forests existed. Though NY can get close with your hemlock heights, right now we have no confirmed white pines over 160', let alone 170'. Growth rates on your trees resemble those of the southern Appalachians, and like you, I wonder what must have been there in years past. Well done, Mark, and thanks again,

Elijah
Thanks Elijah. When I measured a 160'+ white pine near the parking lot at Natural Bridge SP I knew I was onto something special and had to explore the area a little further. I camped for four nights in Daniel Boone NF to be in position to get the most recent measurements, but I still may only be scratching the surface.

Here is some additional info on the lofty white pines:
white pine info.JPG
Matt

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dbhguru
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by dbhguru » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:07 pm

Matt,

I wonder where else there might be outstanding white pines in Kentucky? There is a very good naturalist there who I met back in 2005 - Mark somebody, I think. I may be able to get hold of him and connect the two of you. I'm sure he'd like to know what you've found. I presented an early version of my more or less standard presentation on tree measuring at a conference at Pine Mountain. He understands that the traditional methods of tree measuring don't produce accurate numbers.

It would be good to tie down the distribution and growth achievement of the great whites in Kentucky. Thanks to you, we now have a new white pine frontier.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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Jess Riddle
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Jess Riddle » Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Matt,

Very impressive pines, and I think very significant too. This data really helps fill a gap in our distribution. I think KY, VA, and WV all have the potential to challenge many species height records. We just need more measurements.

The red oak is impressive too. Most of our tall red oaks grow in forests with many other tall hardwood species. It's unusual to see a really tall red oak in a more acidic white pine-hemlock forest.

Jess

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Matt Markworth » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:37 pm

Bob,

That sounds great if you can track down that person. Outside of Tom Kimmerer, I don't know very many "tree people" down in KY so it would be nice to have another contact down there.

Jess,

I'm not sure why it took me so long to get down to Eastern KY for some measurements, but now Daniel Boone NF is right at the top of my list of places I want to do more measuring. Along with the species measured last time, I want to also get some bigleaf magnolia measurements.

You're exactly right on the red oak. It's the only impressive red oak I saw during my time down there. This (not so great) photo shows the tree with hemlocks in the background. Some of the impressive white pines are directly behind the camera. In this south-facing ravine the hemlocks are in the well-protected north end and the oak occupies the space between the hemlocks and the pines.
nro - rrg.jpg
Matt

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Larry Tucei
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Larry Tucei » Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:23 pm

Matt- Wow! Congrats on the tall White Pines that 13' is a beast! We all have discussed White Pine of old to 200' but none have been recorded in modern time. Well I think it won't be long till one somewhere reaches that mark! Nice post! Larry

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Matt Markworth » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:34 pm

All,

Here are some more white pines from the Red River Gorge in KY. The 160 footers don't surprise me anymore down there, but the skinny 1.33' DBH x 143.3' tree was a neat surprise.

white pine
10.26' x 166.2', crown is thinning
9.54' x 162.9', lost original top, has regrown a new top
9.18' x 164.3', lost original top, has regrown a new top
8.95' x 165'
7.48' x 166.2'
4.18' x 143.3', DBH: 1.33'
7.48' x 166.2' white pine
7.48' x 166.2' white pine
4.18' x 143.3' white pine
4.18' x 143.3' white pine
4.18' x 143.3' white pine
4.18' x 143.3' white pine
Matt

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dbhguru
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by dbhguru » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:53 pm

Matt,

Your white pine site grows in significance. Have you met anyone in the park that has an understaning of what they have?

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Matt Markworth » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:08 pm

Bob,

I briefly talked to someone from the forest service in the visitor center, and although they know of the existence of impressive pines I doubt that there is recognition of the heights and how those heights compare to other sites.

I'm definitely going to continue the conversation though. I just sent an email to the Red River Gorge manager to see what kind of interest there is in the data.

Matt

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Mighty Fine Kentucky Pines

Post by Matt Markworth » Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:57 am

All,

Including the tree that I already reported on (http://www.ents-bbs.org/viewtopic.php?f=82&t=7437), here are the white pines that I measured yesterday. Another 160' class tree is added to the list along with another 170' class tree. Now just to find the 180' class tree...
1-2-16.JPG
Vigorous white pine grove:
dense white pine grove.JPG
Well-placed white pine bridge that allowed me to get to the 178.9' pine:
white pine bridge.JPG
Matt

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