New dbh champ for SESE

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John Montague
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by John Montague » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:46 pm

I appreciate the dialogue, and I beg to differ. A photograph is the single best way to verify a tree. It seems to me that your perspective is short-sighted. I don't disagree with you that releasing a photograph to the people on this board presents no immediate danger to the tree. However, once that photograph is published, it is virtually archived forever. Times change. People change. Power structures change. Priorities change. This tree might live another 1000 years. We can go back less than a century and find an era when people actively sought out trees like this one, so they could cut them down. Who is to say we won't avoid another era like that one in the centuries to come?

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John Harvey
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by John Harvey » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:57 pm

With todays technology, if the power structure ever changed and the US were to fall into the hands of a government that didn't care about conservation, there would be no selective seeking out of the largest trees. The entire remaining redwood forests would be annihilated. In fact even when the technology wasn't there and it was done by ax men with long saws and wedges, clear-cutting was still the norm. But anyhow, we will have to agree to disagree.
John D Harvey (JohnnyDJersey)

East Coast and West Coast Big Tree Hunter

"If you look closely at a tree you'll notice it's knots and dead branches, just like our bodies. What we learn is that beauty and imperfection go together wonderfully." - Matt Fox

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KoutaR
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by KoutaR » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:38 pm

Even if the parks remain to exist, the climate does not. Due to the global climate change the redwood area will move to the north and today's great trees will probably die well before their natural senescence.

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yofoghorn
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by yofoghorn » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:41 pm

I think that there's a good point John makes: one photo can make tree identification extremely easy. If photos were never posted of Grove of the Titans, I wouldn't have found it, and had I not posted my own pictures and videos, the people who let the secret out would never have found the grove. Some explorers will not even mention their discoveries in writing, let alone pictures. I think we can reach a nice conclusion that John has shared his discovery with us and pictures would be simply an added bonus. As verifier of Crocodile, I completely allowed the discoverer to make the call of whether or not he'd even share the information of the discovery. This tree could have been kept totally underground, though it wasn't and that's great for everyone. This is just my opinion: let the discoverer choose what to disclose and to whom.
Zane J. Moore
Plant Biology PhD Student
University of California, Davis

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John Harvey
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by John Harvey » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:54 pm

Zane, I agree its really up to the person who discovered the tree. I'm glad there are conservation minded people out there doing the searching regardless of the means they feel are necessary and I'm glad you were able to verify the tree as I respect your expertise in the field. So either way a good find all around.
John D Harvey (JohnnyDJersey)

East Coast and West Coast Big Tree Hunter

"If you look closely at a tree you'll notice it's knots and dead branches, just like our bodies. What we learn is that beauty and imperfection go together wonderfully." - Matt Fox

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Ranger Dan
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by Ranger Dan » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:31 am

Here here! I agree with that last comment. And if the tree is already protected, perhaps it is best that its location should remain a secret known only to a few. After all, we are talking about an individual that is in a sense, the world's finest specimen, and deserves the utmost protection. Although it seems unlikely that the tree and its surroundings would suffer much from fame, it also seems unlikely to benefit. There are plenty of other awe-inspiring yet trampled giants to amuse, inspire, and incite viewers into a lifestyle of altruism if that seed exists in their psyche. As for the few specialists such as our members who would perhaps be the most appreciative, I have learned from several bad experiences that the elite are not necessarily the most careful to minimize impacts that result from their visitation. Some of the highly educated and experienced people that I have led to such wonders have turned out to be the most oafish and careless tramplers, and make no apology for their damages because they, after all, are special.

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Ranger Dan
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by Ranger Dan » Fri Jul 04, 2014 8:32 am

the comment by JHall, that is.

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Don
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by Don » Fri Jul 04, 2014 1:24 pm

I'd only ask,
by standing on the shoulders of giants,
who benefits...?
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
Science Center
Grand Canyon National Park

BJCP Apprentice Beer Judge

View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
http://www.akbigtreelist.org

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Mark Collins
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by Mark Collins » Fri Jul 04, 2014 7:42 pm

Great posts, lots to think about...

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dbhguru
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Re: New dbh champ for SESE

Post by dbhguru » Tue Jul 08, 2014 9:07 pm

John, John, et. al.,

I've been mulling over the posts on this topic and I'm am ready to add my two cents worth. I vacillate on the question of what to divulge and what to keep secret with respect to tree locations. My latest position is that it must be situation driven. Let me explain. One of my life missions has been to secure protection for the special forests of Massachusetts. When most were largely invisible to the public for reasons I won't discuss here, they were vulnerable to the discretion of the few, some with good intentions and some not. It has taken a collective and persistent effort to prevent the best of the remaining Bay State forests from gradually being lost through lack of recognition.

We've gotten protection for old growth and a number of exemplary second-growth forests mostly on State land. For the most part, individual trees stay anonymous, because they are not so prominent that they draw visitors. But when public attention is directed toward special trees, I recognize that they become vulnerable to damage - intentional and unintentional. Securing adequate protection then becomes a balancing act. But some public knowledge of their existence has been necessary to get official recognition. For example, enter the Jake Swamp white pine, New England's tallest accurately measured tree. In 1994, that tree had an orange flag on it, identifying it as a candidate for a ship mast replacement for the Ernestina schooner in Boston Harbor. To the managers, it was just another straight-trunked pine in MTSF. With so many, Jake could easily be sacrificed for a cultural cause. The mam who marked the tree had no idea of its significance. Had that person known, the tree would not have been a candidate for cutting. But it wasn't easy getting recognition for Jake.

Now the Jake Swamp tree is fairly well known, and it does has official protection. DCR is its staunch protector. I don't take members of the public to see it without permission, and I never divulge its exact location via lat and long coordinates, but I do publish images of it and describe it. Since its girth is a modest 10.8 feet, it doesn't stand out to the eye among the other pines. So, in contrast to trees with big girths, it receives protection through anonymity from casual visitors. Still, I am concerned that if Jake were to receive much more attention, visitation would increase and the tree would be soon be damaged through compaction around its root system. So, keeping Jake on the radar scope has to be a balancing act. I expect this will continue to be the case.

On a more general theme, I'm hesitant to give advice to others struggling with similar situations or concerns. I won't stand in judgment of their decisions. However, I do think this is a topic that deserves our continued attention, and hope others will weigh in with their views. I'm pretty confident that the NTS voice is growing. Others do listen, and some can be mighty important people. I was extremely impressed and pleased when I learned that Dr. Craig Allen, one of the outstanding scientist and old growth experts who will speak in Durango, was well acquainted with NTS. I do believe that we are a force for forest and tree protection. And increasingly, I hope, people will be able to recognize us as the gold standard for tree measuring.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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