Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

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Marcboston
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by Marcboston » Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:22 am

right, I'd love to have a time machine and go back- I doubt I'd come back to the present time
Joe
You might come back once in a while especially if you had some toothaches.

Joe

Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by Joe » Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:52 pm

Marcboston wrote:
right, I'd love to have a time machine and go back- I doubt I'd come back to the present time
Joe
You might come back once in a while especially if you had some toothaches.
Palelothic people never had tooth decay.
Joe

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by M.W.Taylor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:55 am

AndrewJoslin wrote:Wow! Great trees, 255' sugar pine is insane! I would not want to be hit by a cone falling out of the top of that fine specimen!
-AJ
A sugar pine cone falling from 255' could potentially be lethal !

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by M.W.Taylor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:58 am

Marcboston wrote:
right, I'd love to have a time machine and go back- I doubt I'd come back to the present time
Joe
You might come back once in a while especially if you had some toothaches.
Joe, at least 90% of Eldorado National Forest has either been clear cut or selectively logged. I have little doubt the big pines we are seeing in Eldorado National Forest today are just basically table scraps compared to what there once was in there.

Michael Taylor

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Marcboston
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by Marcboston » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:31 am

Palelothic people never had tooth decay.
Joe[/quote]

Not to be too big of a nerd...... But you would not be a true Palelothic individual and you would still might be in need of dental assistance due to previous lifestyles etc. I bet a few Palelothic people cracked some teeth once in a while and would have loved to rectify there situation.

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by M.W.Taylor » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:09 pm

I returned to Eldorado National Forest and Calaveras Big Trees State Park this weekend to look for more big pines and also get a tripod measurement on the 255' preliminary measurement sugar pine I reported last week.

My exploring partner Mike and I located a few more notable pine trees in Eldorado National Forest, now one of my favorite places. One particular ponderosa was a 208' tall & 7.5' dbh in a draw above Gerle Creek. This ponderosa had a slow taper and should easily exceed 4,000 cubic feet of wood volume. I will measure its volume next year after the snows melt. Only a few hundred feet away was a slow tapering sugar pine nearly 8' dbh.

I also remeasured the 255' preliminary height sugar pine I reported last week with a tripod mounted Impulse200 LR laser, remote trigger and prism/pole survey. My official height for the tall Calaveras sugar pine is 253.02 feet above the average ground level. The Trupulse200 that I used to esitmate the height the 1st time was slightly inflated, which is typical with my handheld Trupulse200 laser.

See pictures of survey and new big pine trees attached to this post.

Michael Taylor

WNTS VP
AFA California Big Trees Coordinator
http://www.landmarktrees.net
Attachments
Giant 7.5' dbh ponderosa discovered in the dark. Should easily make 4,000+ cubic feet
Giant 7.5' dbh ponderosa discovered in the dark. Should easily make 4,000+ cubic feet
8' dbh sugar pine discoverd in the dark
8' dbh sugar pine discoverd in the dark
ground survey. Remote trigger greatly increases stability and accuracy of the Impulse200LR laser
ground survey. Remote trigger greatly increases stability and accuracy of the Impulse200LR laser
new generation 360 degree survey prism
new generation 360 degree survey prism
7' dbh ponderosa right off the road on highway 50
7' dbh ponderosa right off the road on highway 50
prism pole survey for tree base determined
prism pole survey for tree base determined
measuring the 253'+ sugar pine with Impulse200LR laser and prism/pole survey
measuring the 253'+ sugar pine with Impulse200LR laser and prism/pole survey
Last edited by M.W.Taylor on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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dbhguru
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by dbhguru » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:25 am

Michael,

Fabulous finds. Thanks for keeping us informed. We also should thank Don Bertolette for initially shinning the light on El Dorado. He started something spectacular. Hooray for reunions of old fraternity brothers.

It is fascinating how we are almost in 2012, and absolutely fabulous big tree finds are taking place, East and West. The number of people doing the hunting is miniscule, but the results suggest a trend that may continue for several years - at least a couple. And now that East and West have united, NTS is where the action is.

What is your current feeling about the maximum growth capability of the sugar and ponderosa pines?

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
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M.W.Taylor
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by M.W.Taylor » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:45 am

dbhguru wrote:Michael,

Fabulous finds. Thanks for keeping us informed. We also should thank Don Bertolette for initially shinning the light on El Dorado. He started something spectacular. Hooray for reunions of old fraternity brothers.

It is fascinating how we are almost in 2012, and absolutely fabulous big tree finds are taking place, East and West. The number of people doing the hunting is miniscule, but the results suggest a trend that may continue for several years - at least a couple. And now that East and West have united, NTS is where the action is.

What is your current feeling about the maximum growth capability of the sugar and ponderosa pines?

Bob

Bob, I can't thank Don enough for inspiring me to go out there again. I also think there may be some record sized Jeffrey pines there. I just attached a picture of a rare 7' dbh Jeffrey in Eldorado NF, not far away from Don's big ponderosa.

I believe the maximum size potential for sugar vs ponderosa would be (at least) 10,000 cubic feet and 6,500 cubic feet respecitvely. I make this assessment based on historical evidence and currently standing trees. The Whelan is probably the largest sugar pine in modern existence before and after logging. This is from John Muir's accout. The Whelan Tree is the General Sherman of sugar pines. The trunk volume alone for Whelan is 9,000 cubic feet. If you add up the branches and twigs I think Whelan easily exceeds 10,000 cubic feet of wood volume. Another "goose-pen" sugar pine in Oregon was reported by Douglas with a diameter of 18' at the base. The broken top was very big according to Douglas.

Sugar pine is truly the "king of pines".

That largest ponderosa ever recorded has about 5,400 cubic feet of trunk volume. I doubt this was the largest ponderosa that ever grew, but probably close to it.John Muir, for example said the largest Pinus ponderosa he encountered in his travels was in the Sierra Nevada and it measured 220 feet high and had a diameter of 8 feet (Peattie 1953) Muir visited these forests prior to massive logging. He saw the finest forests of the Sierra. The largest ponderosa he saw was no larger than the largest today. There is reportedly a 9' dbh specimen ponderosa growing near Chester California on Collins Pine land. I have not yet seen this tree. There is a small chance of a 6,000 being still undiscovered in some remote basin of California or Oregon.

I am fairly certain a few sugar pines (and possibly ponderosa) in Briggs Valley, Oregon exceeded 300 ft in height but they were logged 50+ years ago. The 7' dbh scraps that remain in Briggs Valley still tower over 250'. Loggers report increbiy tall 9' & 10' dbh slow tapered trees of "all 3 species" being logged in Briggs Valley. This would include douglas fir, sugar pine and ponderosa. Ponderosa certainly can reach 280' or possibly even 290' in Oregon. I believe those specimens are long gone however.

Michael Taylor
Attachments
7' dbh Jeffrey in Crystal Basin Eldorado National Forest
7' dbh Jeffrey in Crystal Basin Eldorado National Forest
Last edited by M.W.Taylor on Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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mdvaden
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by mdvaden » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:56 pm

Michael.

How the heck do you "calibrate" or sight-in that big rifle scope you have on there. The other one was what, like a 4x scope? That one looks like a standard scope that would be used on a .308 or 30-06.

Did you have Lasertech do it? Or, how do you know if it's dialed-in to like millimeters accuracy?

One possible way I could think of, is sighting the previous scope on a stable point from a distance. Then carefully switching scopes, and then aligning the second scope on that same exact spot without moving the tripod or laser.

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M.W.Taylor
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Re: Monster Pines of the Central Sierra

Post by M.W.Taylor » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:40 pm

Mario,

That is a good question about how I calibrated that big rifle scope to the Impulse200LR. It's actually fairly easy to do and repeatable.

The scope of the Laser Technologies Inc. Impulse200 series is not set to converge with the laser at a specific target range as you would calibrate a true rifle scope. The scope alignment is set in parallel to the IR laser of the Impulse200LR, which is calibrated to the unit's internal inclinometer and 90 degrees to the force of gravity. What this means is the laser and the rifle scope cross-hairs never actually converge at any specific distance...they are set to infinity relative to each other. This is not the same principle as a riflescope.

However, with that being said, this parallel alignment between laser and rifle scope offers a great benefit because it makes calibration easy and repeatable.

To calibrate the entire rifle scope/Impulse200LR system I simply calibrated the rifle scope cross-hairs to read the correct angle relative to gravity with zero degrees as being 90 degrees to the force direction of gravity. The Impulse200LR's internal inclinomer/laser alignment was not affected by the scope removal and replacement to begin with...it's already accurate and calibrated at 90 degree or perpendicular to gravity (unless your Impulse200 laser or inclinometer is off-calibration to begin with). This calibration is much more difficult to perfom and beyond the scope of this forum. If you lose the internal calibration of the 200LR unit, I would highly recommend sending it back to LTI for re-calibration.

To perfom the scope calibration I used a shallow and still pond that is almost 300 feet wide. At the water's edge on one side of the pond I mount the Impulse200 with riflescope attached to a tripod yoke mount and survey pole. I carefully measure the distance from the surface of the pond's water to the center of scope cross-hair which is the center of the scope tube. On the other side of the pond's edge I have another target mounted on a prism pole that the is the same height above the pond's surface. The survey pole with point tip provides an easy vertical distance measurement to the center of scope above the water surface. I then adjust the elevation thumbscrews on the rifle scope to hit the level target, while verifying the Impulse200LR inclinometer is reading zero degrees. I use a remote trigger to keep the system steady and activate the inclinometer repeatedly white I adjust the elevation thumbscrews until aligned.

Water seeks its level and this pond has no outlet and is not flowing so both sides of the pond are level. Now the elevation is calibrated to the Impulse200LR centroid, though off-set 3 inches approximately. But I am still not done yet. I now need to align the scope's windage to the laser's center and do this by using the sound emitter of the Impulse200LR while targeting a pointy tree top with only sky as the background . The Impulse200LR's toggle speaker informs me when the laser is hitting a viable target...I make fine adjustments until the windage is perfectly centered..using the sound feedback of the laser emitter as my guide. It's difficult to explain this unless you used an Impulse200LR but it's quite easy to center using the sound feedback. A video demostation with sound my be helpful in explaining this to people who have never used the Impulse200LR.

Laser Tech Inc. also has a 3x-9x scope option for their Impulse2K model, just like the one I mounted on my Impulse200LR. The 200LR does not come standard with the 3-9x option and it would cost over $500 to have one custom mounted by Laser Tech.

I used the standard Cabelas $40 dollar 3x-9x rifle scope with windage and elevation that are adjustable with thumb screws...that is the key. "Adjustable" . Without the adjustability, I would not be able to calibrate the system.

Michael Taylor

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