Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

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#11)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby Michael J Spraggon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:46 pm

Well, let's apply it to one broad-crowned deciduous tree: the largest Trsteno plane.

Circumference at 2.0m: 10.75m. There is still slight buttressing and tapering above 2.0m all the way up to the first limbs, which I will assume negates the flaring and buttressing below. Original height before pruning: 48.5m.

Cylinder volume: 446.0m³. Cone volume: 148.7m³. 40% of cylinder: 178.4m³, which is not far off our estimate.

Michael
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#12)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby edfrank » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:20 pm

Michael,

I think the numbers for the hemlocks should be similar to those for your spruce.  I only have a little data from a couple of trees that have been mapped for volume that are not conifers.  These are exceptional trees and might not be applicable to others.  I will check with Bob Leverett and see if he has modeled other trees.  (I think he did a big white oak Quercus alba, but if he did I don't see the numbers on the website).

               
                       
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In these cases the branches are enormous and add significantly to the total wood volume. The volume for most conifers for branches is a much smaller percentage.  

If you include branches on these trees you  can get volumes between paraboloid and cylindrical.  If you just look at the trunk volume the numbers are much different.

Sag Branch cylinder = 6602 ft3
Sag Branch Trunk = 2430 ft3
36.8%

Middleton Live Oak cylinder = 5770 ft3
Middelton Trunk =  970 ft3
16.8%

We need more data on the volumes of both broad leaf and conifers.

Edward Frank

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#13)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby KoutaR » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:23 pm

Ed & Michael,

The diameters in Van Pelt's book are DBHs (diameter at BREAST height), indeed. Thus, they cannot be used in our calculation. Van Pelt himself says DBH has a limited value for describing giant western trees.

I looked at some online photos of the biggest eastern hemlocks and they really have almost no buttressing, so using 4.8m should be the best choice. I repeat the calculation:

40.9% x 103.4 m3 = 42,3 m3

If we add three cubes for buttresses and branches we end up in 45 m3. As there were big uncertaincies in the calculation I would state 40-50 m3. Do you agree?

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#14)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby edfrank » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:52 pm

Kouta,

Yes I agree completely. The only trees I think are useful at this point are the hemlocks and the eastern white pine.  The hemlocks average out to 40.9%.  I know there is more white pine data, I just don't have it organized and would need to compile it.  There are many large eastern hemlocks and white pines in the old growth section of Cook Forest.  I am very familiar with these trees and can say that  breast height is typically above the basal flare.  

The one consideration here is that if the top of the tree has been broken very much below where the original tapered top would have been, then the percentage of cylinder occupation will be increased.  The largest percentage in the hemlock listing - the Jim Branch Giant - has such a broken top.  Some trees have the swelled base extending farther up the trunk, others have a top broken out and are shorter than an idealized form.  This is how any set of trees will look.  I am unsure how the overall shape changes as the tree matures.  

As I said before, this is the data we have.  The hemlocks to me seem to be the best representative of what might be expect from your spruce in terms of shape and volume.  The best girth for the calculation should be taken above the swelled base - thus the 4.8 meter option.  I could do better estimates and get a better idea of the ranges of volumes as the tree shapes varied in a mature conifer if we had more measurements.  This is, as far as I can see, the best option for addressing your original question, and my feeling it is as good of an estimate as is possible at this time.

Edward Frank
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#15)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby Michael J Spraggon » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:30 pm

I agree too. It could be anywhere in that range.

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#16)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby edfrank » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:00 am

Michael & Kouta,

I looked at my numbers and have found an embarrassing mistake.  I should have simply averaged the percentage occupation, but instead I calculated it for the average of the average values.  Thus the correct % should have been 44.5%, excluding the Jim Branch Giant.  The median value applied to your spruce would then be 46 m3, and adding 3 m3 for branches, etc. would bring it right to 49, almost exactly your original estimate.  So that would bump your range figures up to 45- 55 m3.  I seem to be messing up too often this past week or so...

Ed

               
                       
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#17)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby Michael J Spraggon » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:21 pm

Do I hear 60? ...anyone?
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#18)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby Will Blozan » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:06 pm

Ed,

This is an interesting discussion and when I have more time I will gather some more white pine and hemlock data. For the record, the Jim Branch Giant did not have a broken top- the Gabes Mountain Hemlock did.

I would never expect Picea to have a similar form/occupation as eastern hemlock. It would be much smaller (for old trees mind you) and more similar if not smaller than e. white pine. As for the cylinder occupation idea Pinus taeda would surpass all for the species I am familiar with. Picea would be among the lowest.

Will

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#19)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby edfrank » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:37 pm

Will,

I would welcome more data.  I have been having some discussions with Bob Leverett concerning his older Form Factor measurements versus the % Cylinder occupation.  Including the Jim Branch Giant, would push the numbers to 45.24 up 0.74 or about 3/4 of cubic meter more.

I pulled these numbers from an older post of Bob's

White Pines (what he called intermediate forms)
Jake Swamp = 39.36
Saheda = 38.3
Tecumsah = 42.8

which also compares to (on the above list)
Cornplanter white pine = 44.8  (at just 28.6 m3 it is the biggest I have data for, but is much smaller than the spruce being discussed)

The number represents how well it matches a particular form as opposed to any height to girth ratio,like skinny versus fat.  More numbers would be great and would help to see if anything meaningful could come out of this.  The girth used needs to be above the neloid portion of the basal flair or the %CO will be depressed. Thanks for the correction on the Jim Branch top.

Ed
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#20)  Re: Biogradska Gora – two new broadleaf tree height records

Postby dbhguru » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:34 pm

Ed,

 The latest modeling of Jake Swamp gives a form factor of 0.41 or 41% occupation.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder and Executive Director
Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest

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