A Hickory ID Request

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#1)  A Hickory ID Request

Postby ElijahW » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:24 am

NTS,

Last Sunday, Tom Howard and I made a measuring trip to Oakwood Cemetery in Syracuse.  This is adjacent to SUNY ESF, and the location for most of Dr. Leopold's tree identification videos.  As far as I can tell, Oakwood contains four or five hickory species, planted and naturally occurring.  Shagbark and Pignut I can readily pick out, and the same goes for Bitternut.  Mockernut is here, as is, I believe, Red.  Some trees are numbered for the forestry students, but the one in question is not.  Here are the photos (all from the same individual tree):
               
                       
DSC00744.JPG
                                       
               

               
                       
DSC00745.JPG
                                       
               

               
                       
DSC00746.JPG
                                       
               

               
                       
DSC00747.JPG
                                       
               

               
                       
DSC00748.JPG
                                       
               

               
                       
DSC00749.JPG
                                       
               

Here are my thoughts:

1.  The bark is consistent with bitternut
2.  The growth form I've not seen in bitternut, and I've seen many
3.  The buds are distinctly not bitternut
4.  The bud shape resembles mockernut, but is not pubescent
5.  The nut seems too small and thin for mockernut, but I'm unfamiliar with mockernut outside pictures and written descriptions
6.  The bark rules out red, pignut, shagbark, and shellbark

Any help from hickory experts would be appreciated.  Thanks,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks
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#2)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby Rand » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:46 pm

That tree looks like it had a very close neighbor up to 5-10 years ago and is now growing back into open space.  Might be the source of some of weirdness in the growth form.  Still, I'd guess pignut--but wait to see what Will Blozan and others have to say.
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#3)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby Will Blozan » Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:05 pm

Looks like red to me. Why did you rule it out based on bark?

-Will
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#4)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby ElijahW » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:17 pm

Will,

From descriptions I've seen of red hickory bark, I assumed it to be darker, with more prominent ridges.  The nuts do fit, though, and I've not come across red hickory other than what Tom and I found at Cayuga Lake State Park.  Bark was the only disqualifying characteristic for calling the tree a red hickory, in my opinion.  

Rand,

You're probably right about the tree having a close neighbor. According to Tom Howard, many trees in the cemetery were lost due to the Labor Day storm of 1998.  Much of the branching, especially in the crown, seems very young.  

Thanks,

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks

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#5)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby ElijahW » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:47 pm

NTS,

I'd like to bother everyone again with some hickory ID questions.  The following photos were of trees within eyesight of each other in the Rochester, NY, area.  The trees are all growing on relatively dry ridges with a western to northwestern aspect.  Associate species include Northern red and Black oak, Red maple, and Black cherry, with a good amount of Flowering dogwood and Witch hazel in the understory.  The photos are of bark only because I was unable to find any complete leaves on the ground and the only whole nuts were Bitternut.  I've already positively ID'd Bitternut and Shagbark hickory in this forest, but it looks like Red, Pignut, and possibly Mockernut hickory are also present.  If you have an opinion on any or all of the photos, please chime in.  Any help would be great; otherwise, I'll wait until probably next fall to look at leaves and nuts carefully.  Thanks,

Tree #1
               
                       
DSC00872.JPG
                       
Hickory #1
               
               

               
                       
DSC00873.JPG
                       
Hickory #1
               
               

               
                       
DSC00874.JPG
                       
Hickory #1
               
               


Tree #2
               
                       
DSC00875.JPG
                       
Hickory #2
               
               

               
                       
DSC00878.JPG
                       
Hickory #2
               
               

               
                       
DSC00879.JPG
                       
Hickory #2
               
               


Tree #3
               
                       
DSC00880.JPG
                       
Hickory #3
               
               

               
                       
DSC00881.JPG
                       
Hickory #3
               
               

               
                       
DSC00882.JPG
                       
Hickory #3
               
               


Tree #4
               
                       
DSC00883.JPG
                       
Hickory #4
               
               

               
                       
DSC00884.JPG
                       
Hickory #4
               
               

               
                       
DSC00887.JPG
                       
Hickory #4
               
               

Elijah
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#6)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby Larry Tucei » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:52 pm

Elijah-    Hickories can be tough to Id-   I'll take a crack at it.  #1 and 2 look like some kind of Ash.  3  maybe Bitternut I'm not real familiar with them they are rare down here. 4 looks like Mockernut.   Larry
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#7)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby Erik Danielsen » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:42 pm

I'd have to hazard a guess that the whole set of trees are the same species, and more likely than not mockernut. Especially 1 and 4. If 2 and 3 are something else they'd probably both be red or pignut. So far I've only encountered smaller mockernuts, and have been mixed up a good bit often enough...
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#8)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby ElijahW » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:29 pm

Larry, thanks for responding.  I don't envy the challenge of identifying all of your southern oaks and hickories.  Though White ash is present nearby, the lack of opposite branching rules it out.  Do you have much mockernut in your area?  My positive ID of mockernut is limited to one young tree.  

Erik, I think either three or four species are represented here, but I also see many similarities in trees 2 & 3.  I've only seen pictures of mature mockernut, so that's the most interesting possibility for me.  A fifth "expression" of the hickory family, which I did not include, is a tree with much darker, almost black, bark, with light-colored ridges.  I'm excited to see what the leaves look like when they come in.

Elijah
"There is nothing in the world to equal the forest as nature made it. The finest formal forest, the most magnificent artificially grown woods, cannot compare with the grandeur of primeval woodland." Bob Marshall, Recreational Limitations to Silviculture in the Adirondacks
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#9)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby Josh Kelly » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:47 pm

Elijah,

Hickories 2 and 3 look a lot like Carya ovalis (red hickory) to me.  Hickory 1 looks more like a mockernut.  I won't hazard a guess on the others.
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#10)  Re: A Hickory ID Request

Postby bbeduhn » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:36 pm

I'm definitely in agreement with Josh on 2 + 3. I'd lean toward mockernut on 1 and pignut on 4.
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