Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

General discussions of measurement techniques and the results of testing of techniques and equipment.

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dbhguru
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Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by dbhguru » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:53 pm

Hi Folks,

Check out the double-trunked oak below. Would anybody really advocate measuring this as a single tree?
StrangeOak-1.jpg
StrangeOak-2.jpg
StrangeOak-3.jpg
StrangeOak-4.jpg
StrangeOak-5.jpg
StrangeOak-6.jpg
StrangeOak-7.jpg
StrangeOak-8.jpg
The two areas of fusion are complicated. As the two trees continue growing, the extra wood has to go somewhere. This observation was recently made by both Will Blozan and Don Bertolette in separate telephone conversations I had with them. In the case of these two oaks, the form that results look rather bizarre. Such forms can be misinterpreted if the bulges occur near the base of the tree.

Initially I had not noticed that at 33 feet up the two trunks, they grew together again. Talk about two confused trees. But they illustrate what can happen.

Images like these are being provided to the AF MGWG to stimulate conversations on what we really mean by "a tree". These are clearly two oaks, but under present rules, they can be measured as a single tree.

Don and I would appreciate other examples of tree structures that have continuous bark at 4.5 feet, but are not legitimately one tree. This is an area where all of you can help. It is one thing to talk abstractly about these issues, but when images are presented, the weaknesses of the present system stand clearly out.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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edfrank
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by edfrank » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:57 pm

How about this one?
DSCN0124a.JPG
DSCN0125a.JPG
Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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Matt Markworth
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by Matt Markworth » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:09 pm

Bob, Ed,

Here's another example demonstrating 2 species.

An Eastern White Pine and American Beech at Heart's Content . . .
DSC01715.JPG
DSC01717.JPG
- Matt

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Don
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by Don » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:16 pm

Bob/Ed/Matt-
Great examples of trees growing in close proximity. The latter two, with pairs of different species seemed to be nonplused by the proximity but made no otherwise 'untoward advances' to each other, each maintaining their own identity.
Bob's on the other hand, seemed to meld, or in the phrasing of tree physiologists, undergo inosculation where they grow over and eventually incorporate the other (at least from outside appearances). This typically is a same-species scenario, but examples of dissimilar species inosculation can be found.
Measurement of these, of course is challenging. In the case of same-species measurements (in the case where one of the two trees is still big enough to be a candidate champion), Bob has undertaken methods of measuring proportionality in conjunction with several estimation techniques with reasonable yields.

Please do keep your 'unusual pairings' tree photos coming, they're very helpful in the context of the MGWG efforts.
Thanks!
Don
Don Bertolette - President/Moderator, WNTS BBS
Restoration Forester (Retired)
Science Center
Grand Canyon National Park

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View my Alaska Big Tree List Webpage at:
http://www.akbigtreelist.org

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jamesrobertsmith
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by jamesrobertsmith » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:47 pm

Oak and Sabal palm at Blue Spring State Park in Florida.

http://pinterest.com/pin/107312403594194477/

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dbhguru
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by dbhguru » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:54 pm

James Robert,

Even if it were allowed in big tree competitions (of course, it isn't), no way I would try to measure that combination.

All,

To repeat what Don requested, please keep 'um coming. The ones of modt value will be trees of the sameu species.

Bob
Robert T. Leverett
Co-founder, Native Native Tree Society
Co-founder and President
Friends of Mohawk Trail State Forest
Co-founder, National Cadre

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edfrank
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by edfrank » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:25 pm

Bob,

I seem to have started a run on hugging trees of different species. What I see in these trees are trees of two different species that the same overall form characteristics of many of the double trees of one species. There is no doubt these are two different trees because they are different species, but if they were of the same species the arguments being made that they were a single tree would be equally invalid. Most doubles are likely from a shared root sprout, but undoubtedly some are separate trees of the same species. For measurement purposes arguing that a double is the same as a single trunk for on a championship list is just plain silly.

I can't think of any photos I have of two trunks with multiple graft points as in your first example. But will look for some in my files. If people have them, post them, even of they are not perfect examples.

Edward Forrest Frank
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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DougBidlack
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by DougBidlack » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:25 pm

Ed,

I know this has little to do with this thread but the oak in your photo looks like white oak rather than northern red oak, as stated by the sign. Are my eyes really that bad?

Doug

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edfrank
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by edfrank » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:34 am

DougBidlack wrote:Ed,

I know this has little to do with this thread but the oak in your photo looks like white oak rather than northern red oak, as stated by the sign. Are my eyes really that bad?

Doug
Doug, It does look more like white oak. I never paid any attention. If the sign was wrong, I think Dale would have caught it by now, but you never know. I will look the next time I get up there.

Ed
"I love science and it pains me to think that so many are terrified of the subject or feel that choosing science means you cannot also choose compassion, or the arts, or be awe by nature. Science is not meant to cure us of mystery, but to reinvent and revigorate it." by Robert M. Sapolsky

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Jess Riddle
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Re: Looking at a strange oak with an objective in mind

Post by Jess Riddle » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:54 pm

Overcup oak and Carolina red maple
Overcup oak and Carolina red maple
Yellow birch and sycamore
Yellow birch and sycamore

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