LocaL HEMLOCK

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#1)  LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:57 pm

Image


[googlevideo]https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMP6wesHgnL_v_d-fjNofrw-oCb4Hah_G7wuO2Eoq34hpPcXZ94Y7PiV29l3XstYQ/photo/AF1QipNx9p4huWqXhqYP03bkpZlZjI525fC2YuEhccyi?key=dmc0QzhLUC10UTBRM1c1TEVfUVBaRXpRaWxyeFVn[/googlevideo]

Does google video work here?

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMP6wesHgnL_v_d-fjNofrw-oCb4Hah_G7wuO2Eoq34hpPcXZ94Y7PiV29l3XstYQ/photo/AF1QipNx9p4huWqXhqYP03bkpZlZjI525fC2YuEhccyi?key=dmc0QzhLUC10UTBRM1c1TEVfUVBaRXpRaWxyeFVn

Visible from the link anyway.

I was in the more than 125 years old local park, "including a dramatic steep-sided gorge, a winding river, cascading waterfalls, and a stately old-growth Eastern Hemlock forest", on the weekend. I rarely go there but while there I noticed that the trees were very high for here. It was hard to judge but I would guess 100 feet or more. Red spruce, hemlock, and some norway spruce were all tall.

I talked to some people from the Carolinas while there and they were super impressed with the trees. They said it was as good as what they had seen in the south. One guy knew what hemlock adelgid was so they knew more than most.

If more pix, or whatever, are of interest let me know.
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir
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#2)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Erik Danielsen » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:14 am

I'd love to see more pictures; looks like a forest with a lot of that character of antiquity that really old hemlocks provide. Do you know if hemlocks in the stand are pre-settlement? Obviously the Norways are not; are they mixed in with the other conifers or distributed in a way that suggests they originate from more recent plantings separate from the native conifers?
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#3)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:26 pm

Erik Danielsen wrote:I'd love to see more pictures; looks like a forest with a lot of that character of antiquity that really old hemlocks provide. Do you know if hemlocks in the stand are pre-settlement? Obviously the Norways are not; are they mixed in with the other conifers or distributed in a way that suggests they originate from more recent plantings separate from the native conifers?


I did a little checking on the web and they keep referring to it as old growth. Whether that means never cut is the question. Someone will know if I can find the right source. Some trees took a hurricane hit in 2003 but the gorge helped protect many.

One piece of promotion by the town references "a stately old-growth forest containing 250-year old Eastern Hemlocks."
We travel the Milky way together, trees and men. - John Muir
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#4)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby dbhguru » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:43 pm

Lucas

    Those hemlocks definitely have a presence. Old growth hemlocks do and because of that people tend to over-estimate their sizes. I've witnessed that many times. The people from the Carolinas appear to have done so.

   Before they died from the adelgid, the big hemlocks in the Smokies and other southern Appalachian ranges were simply colossal. A few single-trunk Smoky Mountain hemlocks reached between 17 and 18 feet in circumference. At least one measured a hair under 20 feet around. The Usis hemlock in the Smokies (climbed by Will Blozan) was 16.5 feet around and a mind-blowing 173 feet tall. Will and Jess climbed, modeled, and treated many over 160 feet tall in a joint Eastern Native Tree Society - National Park Service project quite a few years ago. One reason the larger southern Appalachian hemlocks were not always seen as large as they were is that they were commonly buried in rhododendron thickets. A thick understory makes judging tree size difficult.

    For many years Will championed those great hemlocks and put lots of his own money into documenting and treating them. Alas, they are just memories now.

Bob
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#5)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:29 pm

Yes, I figured they were off on their impressions.
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#6)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:19 pm

I went into the online forest inventory and they claim 60 feet. Whether that is accurate is a question.
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#7)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby dbhguru » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:04 pm

Lucas

   If the forest inventory you cited is claiming the heights of the hemlocks shown are 60 feet, that number is likely to be low by 20 to 30 feet, if not more. Sixty feet is nothing for a mature hemlock. Hard to understand where such a number could come from.

   We've measured old growth hemlock in the Porcupine Mtns to slightly under 120 feet. We have similar heights for hemlocks in the NY Adirondacks. Same in New Hampshire. In Massachusetts, we see them up to between 125 and 130 feet. In Pennsylvania, add another 10 to 15 feet. In Ohio, our folks have measured a 160-footer or two. In the southern Appalachians, pre-adelgid, we saw them  between 160 and 170 feet with a tiny number over 170.  That's pretty much the story of the species in terms of maximum height growth.

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#8)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:35 pm

dbhguru wrote:Lucas

   If the forest inventory you cited is claiming the heights of the hemlocks shown are 60 feet, that number is likely to be low by 20 to 30 feet, if not more. Sixty feet is nothing for a mature hemlock. Hard to understand where such a number could come from.

   We've measured old growth hemlock in the Porcupine Mtns to slightly under 120 feet. We have similar heights for hemlocks in the NY Adirondacks. Same in New Hampshire. In Massachusetts, we see them up to between 125 and 130 feet. In Pennsylvania, add another 10 to 15 feet. In Ohio, our folks have measured a 160-footer or two. In the southern Appalachians, pre-adelgid, we saw them  between 160 and 170 feet with a tiny number over 170.  That's pretty much the story of the species in terms of maximum height growth.

Bob


I am suspicious as well. I believe the data is 20 years old from aerial photo interpretation. I have seen errors in it before. If someone wants to look at the data I can post the link.

However 100 feet is as likely as high as anything is now here. In the past, 150 foot pines were probable, especially in the Zone 6-7 areas in the SW.

The town says there are large several files I can check for info. I have not done it yet. I do remember seeing a report in the library once that talked about the ecology and trees there. It is not in their database but I will ask.

A while back a forester friend said

There is a similar big tree contest here in Nova Scotia.  We score by the diameter at breast height in centimeters (instead of circumference in inches) and the height in metres (instead of height in feet) and don't include the width of the crown, which is difficult to measure. I converted their measurements on this yellow birch and the diameter was 124 cm at dbh and the height was 26.5 m.   I won our contest back in the early 1990's with a hemlock that was 31 metres tall and dbh of over 125.  It had a flared butt just like this yellow birch.  It was near Keji, but outside the park.  There was another one about 100 feet away that was 33 metres tall, but only 121 cm dbh !!!!  Those were the two biggest trees I have ever seen in this province.  I've seen some pretty impressive white pine that branch down low and form several big trees in one, but for single stem trees these were massive.
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#9)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby Lucas » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:55 pm

I compared a nature reserve with old growth sugar maples, etc reported to 100 feet against the inventory data which claimed 16 m or 51 feet. Big difference. The  tallest patch in the data I saw was 22 m for some 20+ acres of isolated maples in a CB gorge. I wonder what they would be like.
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#10)  Re: LocaL HEMLOCK

Postby dbhguru » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:12 am

Lucas,

   My experience with sugar maples is that they struggle to exceed 100 feet above about 44 degrees north latitude except where large bodies of water modify the climate and/or very deep soils combined with protection gives the trees a growth boost. One can profile a species like sugar maple both latitudinally,  longitudinally, and topographically and develop pretty good maximum growth models. That was one of our original intentions in NTS. We're pretty close to being able to develop those kinds of profiles for white pines, hemlocks, tuliptrees, sugar maples, red maples, and some of the oak species. But much of the data needed to complete the profiles is buried in literally thousands on NTS posts. Digging it out is more than a one person job.

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